Board Leadership Bites
Board Leadership Bites is the podcast for Kansas school board members and education leaders looking for practical insights they can put to work right away. Hosted by Dr. Brian Jordan, each bite-sized episode explores timely topics, leadership strategies and real-world challenges facing school boards today.
Whether you're a new board member or an experienced leader, you'll gain valuable perspectives, actionable ideas and expert guidance to help strengthen your board, support your district and lead with confidence.
Big leadership ideas. Bite-sized conversations for better boards.
Board Leadership Bites
Disagree Without Division: Norms that Work
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In this episode of Board Leadership Bites, Dr.Brian Jordan sits down with Curt Herman, Manhattan-Ogden board member and KASB President-Elect, to explore the leadership and governance practices that help school boards navigate challenges, build trust and stay focused on their long-term goals.
Together, Brian and Curt discuss the importance of thoughtful decision-making, productive board conversations and keeping student and community needs at the center of effective governance. Tune in for practical insights to help school board members lead with clarity, purpose and a long-term perspective.
This episode of Board Leadership Bites is sponsored by Navitas, a partner to K–12 school districts providing strategic capital planning, energy savings, infrastructure renewal and facility optimization solutions.
Learn more at Navitas.us.com.
Welcome to Board Leadership Bytes, a short podcast brought to you by the Kansas Association of School Boards. I'm your host, Dr. Brian Jordan, the Executive Director of KSB. In this episode, we're talking about something every board encounters sooner or later: disagreement within the board. More specifically, how do you lead as a board president or a board leader when there's disagreement within the board? Today, joining me is Kurt Herman, president-elect of KSB, longtime board member of Manhattan Ogden School Board, long many time president of the Manhattan Ogden School Board.
SPEAKER_03Five times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for being here, Kurt.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you, Dr. Jordan. Appreciate you having me and letting me uh share some information.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so one of the things that that I think is difficult for some new board members to process or understand is that disagreement on a board is not does not mean it's necessarily a failure. In fact, there is healthy disagreement that happens on a board and can actually be a strength of a board if they can have some healthy disagreement. Uh so from your perspective, what's the difference between healthy disagreement and dialogue versus unhealthy disagreement and dialogue? What what have you seen over the years with board?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I mean, I that's a great question, and is it a good topic that to discuss? And, you know, I mean, there's you you can disagree without being disagreeable, and but not only that, if if uh um and it is good, the board shouldn't agree on everything. Right. You know, so there's some things that should be should be unanimous, like when you vote on a teacher's contract. I that to me that should always be unanimous vote. Um because you know, if if one or two people vote against it, then there's obviously dissidence on the board, and then we don't support our staff. So um, but um but there's also, you know, if as as uh if you have an opposing view as a board member, I think it's important to share why. Yeah, you know, some board members will just vote no. Uh-huh. Um, and I've even asked some of them, you know, why why'd you vote no on that? Well, I don't have to tell you why. Well, you don't, but maybe one of us would agree with you if you want to bring up your point, if you maybe have a good point. Yeah, you know, we'd love to hear it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's part of serving on a board is understanding the six other people that are there at that table, their views, their values, what they believe in. And you're right, there may be some nugget in there that I may agree with you on, but being willing to share. So, how do you how do you tease that out? If you're the board president, uh how do you try to tease that out or make sure that the disagreement is a healthy dialogue and discussion versus it evolving or devolving into just a personal, I just want to be obstinate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, as the board president, you know, it's kind of up to you to to uh run the meeting and uh but also keep uh uh I guess a uh a sociable uh demeanor in it, or uh can't think of I'm I'm lacking missing the words right now to say, but um uh but you could you know you can kind of guide the discussion by you know saying, well, hey, thank thanks for sharing that perspective. I hadn't thought about it in that way. Can you elaborate a little more on that or you know, or maybe do a couple follow-up questions and or even uh you know encourage other maybe other board members might would jump in and and maybe ask some follow-up questions on it?
SPEAKER_02I really like that. So talk to me a little bit more how you pull those other board members into that conversation if if maybe one person that's in disagreement with the issue at hand is really dominating the conversation or or really filling all the airwaves, so to speak, with their disagreement. How do you pull other people into that conversation as the board president?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, it's also you know, being being experienced and being you know with other board members for quite a few quite a few years, you know, it's always you can always fall back on things in the past, you know, like hey, hey Brian, there was something that you'd said. I remember a few years ago you you were opposed to this, but now you're in favor of it. What changed your mind or what moved you to a different place on your vote on that? So kind of encourage and go look go back a little bit in the in the past.
SPEAKER_02So you mentioned at the top of this podcast that that disagreement uh boards should not always be 7-0, but there are situations where you of course want them to be 7-0. How do you uh support or encourage discussion at the board table so that you're being thorough and that things don't devolve into just a disagreement and and a stubbornness and set that separates the board? How do you encourage some of that dialogue and that healthy disagreement, if you will?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, like again, like I said, I I think just uh leading the discussion and uh making sure they'd remain civil and and uh you know, and really kind of maybe try and tease out um exactly what the opponent or what the opposing view would be. And again, like I said before, I I may agree with you. You may change my mind, or maybe another board member's mind. Yeah. So encourage them to share more about rather than just I I don't believe in taxes, so I'm voting against this. Well, but everything we do is related to taxes. Sure. So maybe you should be maybe more specific on what what about this one thing really bothers you more than other things?
SPEAKER_02So I'm gonna build on that a little bit. One of the most difficult things that I hear board members discuss or share is developing a relationship with you as a fellow board member. We only meet maybe once a month, twice a month in some of the larger districts. Do you have some ways or or ideas or things that board members can do to try to develop a healthy relationship and understanding of who is Kurt Herman, who's Brian Jordan? And so when we sit down at that table, I kind of understand what makes you tick. Do you have any thoughts, insights of how you've done that over the years?
SPEAKER_03That that's a great question. And I and I've used it, you know, I've been on the board almost 20 years. Yep. Um, and I've had a lot of past board members that once they left the board, and I've always told them, well, now we can become friends. Sure. You know, because I mean not that we're friends during the board service, but it's a whole different uh dynamic because you can't, you know, we can't all go hang out and and go eat pizza or go bowling or um, but but to the on the second on the other hand of that is I I often will, in fact, every new board member I will go out and have coffee. Perfect. You know, but just one-on-one, you know, but uh but I also too, you know, I always like to make sure if there's a if we're doing it in a social event, and you've heard me say this before, let's don't talk shop. You know, what's going on? What's going on with your family? How are your kids? Yep, you know, and and so I think it's just to develop a really you can develop a friendship and a relationship that way too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a that's a that's a great nugget there that you shared. Everyone is familiar with you know, coma laws, and you can't have more than three board members, but what you just said there about when we are in those spaces or those places where there is a couple of us, let's talk about life. Let's talk about what makes you tick, uh, what what your values are, what drives you to serve, I think is oftentimes a great talking point. Uh there's plenty of time to talk shop at the board table.
SPEAKER_03Uh right, and and actually, and I think that actually helps you when we do have a conversation at the table because knowing your background and knowing more about your kids, and maybe you have an autistic daughter that's you know that's in school, and so knowing those type of things, maybe that helps me understand you a little better on how you vote and and uh some of the statements you make.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, one of the other things when we talk with boards uh during board training is uh the concept of don't let this disagreement ruin the next decision or impact the next decision, uh, meaning that you can't take it personal. If there is disagreement on an issue, uh can you can you share any any tips or any strategies for board members to kind of compartmentalize that, hey, we disagreed on this issue, but this next topic that we're going to talk about and deliberate is important. How how how over the years, how have you kind of compartmentalized those those decisions to be one-off decisions and not impacted the whole culture of the board?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just just being respectful to each other and you know, and when you vote no on something, you just I mean, just move on to the next topic and and but I think you hit it right on the head. You don't, you know, don't take it personally. Um but I think that also, you know, I and that's one thing that I, you know, even though I'm heavily involved with the KSB, but I think KSB does an excellent job of boardsmanship and really letting letting people see that, you know, okay, if you don't get your way, just move on and and uh go on to the next topic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you never know what what's going to come up in the future where you will be aligned with that person. And so not making it personal, really focusing on the issue. We we talk consistently about making sure the focus is on the priorities, those agreed-upon things that that matter for all for all students. Uh and so that that that I think is another tip as a board president that I I know you do. I I've watched you do in board meetings is bringing it back to the issue at hand and trying to remove the personal emotions and and feelings that come along with those things. Yeah. Any final thoughts, ideas, nuggets that you've experienced or learned over the years to keep the focus on the work at hand and not let the disagreement or the healthy dialogue derail the work of the board?
SPEAKER_03I I I've said it before, and I I think it's really important to remember that you know, if we we won't always agree on everything. And if you disagree, and if you're gonna vote no, say why. Yeah. Because I think that's real important because I again it I've had some board members that I've served with that it's like, well, I don't have to tell you why I'm voting no. And like, you're right, you don't, but maybe I'll agree with you. Maybe a couple others will agree with you, or if you're making a point, it's pointless if you don't say why.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, excellent, excellent feedback or not, excellent feedback, excellent tip there. So so wrapping this up, disagreeing without division doesn't mean the you're avoiding the tough conversations, it means handling them with purpose and respect is is making the commitment to your students and keeping the focus on the main things. So, Kurt, appreciate you taking some time today to come in and talk about this topic.
SPEAKER_03You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02And thank you for your service to Kansas kids.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Dr. Jordan.
SPEAKER_01School districts are constantly balancing aging facilities, growing needs, and limited resources. Navitas partners with K-12 school districts to turn facility challenges into practical, long-term solutions. From strategic capital planning and energy savings to infrastructure renewal and facility optimization, Navitas helped schools stretch resources further and make investments that last.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to Board Leadership Fife. We hope today's conversation gave you a practical takeaway to bring back to your board table. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And visit kasp.org for more resources, professional learning, and support of Kansas School Board Leaders. Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep building stronger boards.